BRIEF THERAPY INSIDE OUT
WITH
LEN SPERRY
Welcome to Brief Therapy Inside
Out! We have been teaching courses in counseling theory and practice at
Governors State University in Illinois for several years. Time and again, we
have searched for ways to show students how various practitioners work. What if
you know you can only work with this client for a brief time? What are some of
the ways you can quickly develop rapport with a client? What does therapeutic
hypnotherapy look like? Just what is EMDR anyway? Can you really do “brief”
psychodynamic therapy?
We also wanted to share with our
students the personhood of some of the leaders in our field. Not all students
are motivated to or can afford to attend conferences and workshops where they
can meet the leaders in our field. And, as practitioners ourselves, we know how
difficult it is to find the time and resources to do this.
This series focuses on thirteen
outstanding practitioners who share with us not only the skills and concepts of
the brief therapy they have developed, but also tell us about themselves.
Therefore, this project has been rewarding to us both personally and
professionally. We hope you will share some of this with us as you view this
video and follow the study guide.
We can be reached at Division of
Psychology and Counseling, Governors State University, University Park, IL
60466. Jon’s e-mail address is jcarlson@genevaonline.com; Diane’s e-mail
address is d-kjos @ govst.edu.
Jon Carlson, Ed.D., Psy.D Diane
Kjos, Ph.D.
HOW
TO USE THIS TAPE
This tape is divided into three
segments. In the first segment (17 minutes), Jon Carlson and Diane Kjos
interview Len Sperry to gain an overview of his approach. The next segment is
client session (47 minutes). The client is a volunteer who has not previously
met with Len Sperry. Following this, Len Sperry, Carlson and Kjos review and
discuss key points in the counseling session (45 minutes).
Each of the three segments have
time markers so that you can quickly find your place. These time markers are
designed to indicate both the segment of the tape and the minutes into that
segment. You will note that, in the first segment, the time marker has one
line, in the second there are two lines, and in the third, three lines. Thus
the therapy session, which is the second segment, has time markers with two
lines. This study guide contains a complete transcript of the therapy session
with minute indicators so that you can quickly find a particular exchange.
For class or workshop application: You may wish to assign one or
more reading prior to having the class view the video. We recommend the following sequence for a class or
workshop:
1.
Show
the opening interview which covers key points concerning this approach to brief
therapy and then discuss with the class things they might look for in the
counseling session itself.
2.
Depending
on time available:
1.
Show
the second segment without pause, asking participants to note the time markers
of interventions they found particularly significant.
1.
Briefly
discuss significant interventions and turning points in the session.
2.
Highlight
and discuss common or universal skills such as relationship building or
challenging that are demonstrated in this session.
2.
Show
the second segment with pauses to highlight and discuss significant
interventions and turning points in the session.
3.
Show
the third segment and note the segments of the therapy session that the
discussants highlighted.
The video series is also useful
for personal skill building. For example, you might compare how different
therapists build a therapeutic relationship with the client or close a session.
TRANSCRIPT
OF THE SESSION WITH A
LS1 [2-1] Well, Kathleen,
what concerns brought you to this session today?
CL1 [2-2] Well, I have been
having panic attacks or you might call it epilepsy for like about five or six
years now. Right before I got married I was having these attacks where it would
start coming up my leg and going into my arm. I would get like really, really
tight, and it would go over to my left arm and then go down my leg, and they
never could understand what the problem was. I’ve gone to see doctors. I’m
currently seeing a therapist and a psychiatrist, and the psychiatrist says that
these panic attacks, the kind that I get, do not, you know, they don’t occur
with a panic attack. So, because like I pass out, and then I will kind of like
awaken, like I might fall and hit my head or something like that, and then I
will awake, and I won’t know where I’m at, and they say that those do not
relate to panic attacks. So, but I think, to me, I do get panic attacks. But
they just cannot pinpoint what kind I do get.
LS2 So you mentioned panic
attacks and epilepsy.
CL2 Right.
LS3 So, in your mind do
you have one or both?
CL3 Um, in one way I think
I have both, and in the other way I think I have panic. I really, I really wish
I could pinpoint down what kind of either or I have.
LS4 Okay. If you could do
that . . .
CL4 Yes.
LS5 How would your life be
different?
CL5 [2-3] Oh, much better.
Much better. I wouldn’t like have to worry about anything or, I mean, I know
people worry about things. But I would feel more at ease with life. Um, with
being married and everything. I have to think of really if we want to have
children, my husband and I. I would have to get off medication first or see if
I’m well enough to have children. So that kind of is not worrisome, but it’s on
my, it’s on both of our minds.
LS6 So, if you could get
clarity, whether it’s one or both, it would make all the difference in the
world.
CL6 [2-4] Oh, much. It
would. Because I would be able to like I say enjoy life and be happy. Because I
mean I just don’t laugh. I just sit there, and I’m like a bum. I just don’t, my
husband like laughs and everything. He’s like why don’t you laugh? I said I can’t. But when I’m away from him,
because I volunteer at a hospital in the gift shop, I’m fine. I’m happy. I’m
content there. It’s like every time that I go to start a job, that’s when it
happens. I get panicky.
LS7 A job meaning . . .
CL7 A job.
LS8 Not a volunteer.
CL8 No. When I go to start
a job, I get all panicky and then I can’t work. And then my husband gets all
mad with me saying, you know, he’s like well why can’t you get this job? Why can’t you stay on the job? And he doesn’t get like really violently
mad. He just gets upset which I don’t blame him. Because he was going to Purdue
University in Hammond, Indiana, and at the time we were having problems with me
having these attacks, and I was going and having these, and he was about to
graduate, and he asked me, please don’t have any of your attacks while I’m
trying to have my finals. And what did I do?
I had panic the whole week of his . . .
LS9 [2-5] Oh my goodness.
CL9 And oh was he mad. But
at least he graduated.
LS10 How did he manage to do
that?
CL10 I don’t know. He just
did.
LS11 So, somehow he was able
to take his final exams and didn’t seem to, your symptoms didn’t seem to make a
difference.
CL11 No.
LS12 What kind of difference
did those symptoms make in your life during that time?
CL12 [2-6] Well, we had to go
from like a, we were planning our wedding at the time, and we had to go from
like say a 200 people wedding down to only 40. That’s including myself and my
husband, because we had to, we said why have a big wedding and the day of me be
on the floor with panic attacks or whatever I have and we have to cancel out
and lose all the money where we just had a regular wedding and then we had just
a restaurant reception with our families, and then we had a big party at the
house like for all our friends and everything, casual party. And I was so much
better. So. . .
LS13 Did the thought ever
occur or did you discuss, the both of you, whether maybe not to have any
reception at all?
CL13 Um, what like a big
reception or . . .
LS14 None.
CL14 Um, well at first . . .
LS15 A reception with 200
people, you could have had panic attacks, you could have had it with 40 people.
CL15 Right, but I was fine
that day. I was fine.
LS16 What do you think
accounts for that?
CL16 [2-7] I don’t know. I
really don’t. I mean I think I was, see if I don’t think about it, I don’t get
them. So I probably had a lot on my mind where I said okay, you know, they just
didn’t even appear that day. And then the day we had our outside party nothing
happened that day because I was too busy running around making sure everything
was in its place and all, and I was fine.
LS17 [2-7] Was that sort of
a rule for you that you noticed then?
If you are preoccupied, if you have things that need to get done, then
it isn’t a problem?
CL17 Right. If I’m
preoccupied, like if I, you know, sitting at home all the time watching TV, or
taking naps, then you are sitting in the same house and you’re not doing
nothing. Where if you get out and volunteer or just go shopping and not buy
anything, at least you are out of the house. You’re doing something.
LS18 Okay. Is that kind of
an iron clad rule? It hasn’t failed you
yet?
CL18 Right. I asked my
husband. I said now if I don’t work, please can I have at least two or three
days of volunteering, and he’s like fine. Because I mean it will get me out of
the house for at least four or five hours and I’m around people that I love or
like a lot.
LS19 [2-8] Any reason why
you settle on two or three days instead of one day or five days?
CL19 Well, I mean if, I just
said like two or three because I know the lady needs me two days a week, and
plus we are planning on moving, and so he’s like do two days a week of
volunteering and then the rest of the week pack. You know, cause like get
ourselves packing because the house won’t pack itself.
LS20 Oh, you don’t have that
kind of house?
CL20 No, I wish. I wish we
did.
LS21 Yeah. Where are you
going to be moving to.
CL21 Oh, hopefully Oak Lawn.
It’s a suburb a little bit southwest of where we are living right now. Get
closer to family. Because like all our friends and everything have moved. My
neighbors have moved and so it’s kind of hard.
LS22 Is that going to be a
good move?
CL22 I hope. Because we’ve
been, it’s been my house for thirty-two years.
LS23 Oh, it was in the
family?
CL23 Right it was my mom and
dad’s, and that was my only house that I’ve known, and . . .
LS24 Where are they?
CL24 [2-9] Oh, both of them
are deceased.
LS25 Oh, they are.
CL25 And I was the only
child. So, it was kind of hard at first and everything, and my husband same
thing. His mom and dad are divorced, I’m sorry, are deceased too. And he never,
see right now he is seeing a doctor and a therapist because he has never really
mourned his parents. And I said now you know how I feel. Because, I mean, I
mourned, but I didn’t mourn. And that really effected me too.
LS25 So there is more
mourning for you to do?
CL25 Not really, no. I mean
some like occasions, like maybe Mothers Day, Fathers Day, like little things
here and there, or anniversaries, birthdays will come up, but it is not as bad.
Where like with my husband he never, never mourned. He just took it real
lightly, and myself I was the other way around.
LS26 And how long ago was .
. .
CL26 [2-10] Ah, my dad was
twelve years and my mom eleven.
LS27 All right, so they were
very close together.
CL27 Um, nine weeks of each
other. So, it was hard. But I had family and friends that were around.
LS28 All right. And you got
through things.
CL28 Yeah, I got through.
LS29 But then four or five
years ago these things . . .
CL29 These things came up.
LS30 These attacks started
happening.
CL30 Right. Because at first
in 1982 I started getting what they thought were epilepsy, and I went through
every test known to man.
LS31 Okay, is this 92?
CL31 No, I’m sorry, 82. And I
had every test, excuse me, known to man done and I came out fine.
LS32 Okay.
CL32 [2-11] And now I think I
need to see a neurologist to see what is wrong, but if I went right now, they
would come up negative. But what I need is the test to be done while I’m having
my panic attack to see what is wrong.
LS33 Okay. Do you think that
will be arranged?
CL33 Well, I would have to
see if I could get one done.
LS34 How do they usually
come on?
CL34 Oh, I just get like
really tense and I stop breathing, but then I tell myself breathe, breathe,
just keep breathing. And then it’s like I’m lifting weights. That’s the way I
feel, and then I, my arm drops down, and then maybe a few seconds later it will
start up again, and I have to either be laying down on a couch or laying on a
bed flat so I don’t fall anyway because I don’t want to hurt myself.
LS35 And about how long
would that whole episode last?
CL35 The last one I had
lasted practically all day, all day long from like 10:00 in the morning to
almost 9:00 at night.
LS36 All right, and when was
that, the last one?
CL36 Oh, probably in March.
LS37 Of this year?
CL37 Yes.
LS38 [2-12] All right. And
when was the first one?
CL38 When was the first one.
Oh, that was a few moths before we got married. No, I take that back. It was in
let’s see, wait. When did he graduate?
1992. Had to have been like the fall of 1992 that I’ve been having
these.
LS39 So he graduated at what
time?
CL30 December of 1992.
LS40 All right.
CL40 And that’s when we were
planning the wedding. And see I was planning, we were going to have, like I
said the big wedding and everything, and I think a lot, if I get a lot of stuff
on my mind, you know, built up and everything, then I get stressed, and that
brings on the panic.
LS41 Can you describe that
first panic back in 1992, in the fall?
CL41 [2-13] The first one I
had I was in bed, and all of a sudden, I was, the pain came up my leg into my
arm, and I grabbed the bedpost, and it went over to this side, and I grabbed
the bedpost, and I just, I didn’t know what it was. And I just called my
husband. I just called him and called him, and he finally came in. And then I
got out of the bed, and then it started again, and I sat on the floor, and I
held his hand, and it went the same way and everything. And we didn’t know what
to do. I mean, we tried calling my neurologist and everything, and they wanted
me to come in, but I couldn’t go in.
LS42 So, what were you
feeling?
CL42 Oh, god I didn’t know
what.
LS43 These were like
what?
CL43 Demons coming in.
LS44 Like some shock pains?
CL44 Not shocks pains. No. It
was just like really, really tight.
LS45 Tightness?
CL45 Yeah coming all the way
up and going down and then int would start all over again. And I mean I had it
like three, four hours.
LS46 So these were shooting
sensations?
CL46 No, just real tight.
LS47 Tightness.
CL47 Yes.
LS48 And what about other
things you noticed?
CL48 [2-14] Really those are
the only kinds of experiences I get.
LS49 All right. Do you
remember anything else at that first time?
Does your breathing change?
CL49 Yes. My heart goes
really fast, and then I would stop breathing. Like I would get scared, and I
would . . .
LS50 Hold your breath.
CL50 And then what I was
told, breathe, breathe, continue breathing but slowly. You know, pace your
breathing.
LS51 What kind of feelings
did you have?
CL51 Scariness. I was very
scared.
LS52 How scared?
CL52 Um, just as scared as
you can get. Just wishing they were over.
LS53 Were you so scared that
you thought something fatal was going to happen?
CL53 No, not really. No. Not
that I was going to die or anything. I was just scared. I was just, I wished
they would just get out of my system. I wish I never had them. I wished they
would never come back.
LS54 Okay. You mentioned
demons.
CL54 [2-15] Not really
demons, but it was just a very, like when you go on a, like a scary ride or
anything like that. You just get scared. And that’s how I felt.
LS55 Okay.
CL55 I felt like that.
LS56 Have you ever had
anything like that in your life before?
CL56 No. No that was the
first time it’s ever happened.
LS57 Well, you mentioned
something similar to like when you are going on a ride. Or anything quite that
intense?
CL57 No. Not really. It’s
just, you just get scared, and you just, like I said, you just want them to go
away. Never come back. But they just do when I get all stressed out.
LS58 Okay. Do you know
anybody else who has had anything like that?
CL58 [2-16] Um, not really.
No. It’s, this is, I take that back. I do have a cousin who has panic attacks,
but I’ve never seen him have them. I was told. But no, I’m the first one in the
family that’s ever had anything like that.
LS59 So your parents were
pretty healthy?
CL59 Yeah, they were find up
until their deaths and everything like that, and fine. Nobody.
LS60 But their deaths were
really a surprise?
CL60 Yes. Both of them were
cancer. Yeah. So, it was hard.
LS61 Did you have any
particular kind of reaction around the time of their deaths?
CL61 [2-17] Well, I remember
when they operated on my dad the second time. And they found the cancer, and
the doctor did not come into the room, and he told my mother on the phone in
his room saying that he had cancer. It was in between the liver and pancreas
and it was inoperable and all, and when my mother told me, I just screamed and
said I hate God. I just hate him, and my mother brought me to the side and she
said, “Don’t you ever do that.” You know, I was just, it’s just mad. You just
get mad. Anything just comes out of your mouth. And the same thing when my
mother was ill. My aunt would bring her to the doctor, and I’d be talking to
her on the phone, but it would be going in one ear and out the other. You just
didn’t want to hear it. It was just, you know, I didn’t want to hear about it
at all.
LS62 So, you didn’t want to
hear it. . .
CL62 No.
LS63 . . .was one thing, but
you were also very angry.
CL63 [2-18] Yeah, I was very
angry, because I wish I could go back a few times and say like where are
important papers that I need? You know,
just have a talk with them. But that’s the first thing I get up there I’m going
to say to God why? Why did you take
them. But I look now, and I think that God did not want me, or my parents, I
take that back, did not want me to watch them suffer or to have to take care of
them, you know, if they got worse. So I think that they left me when they were
just beginning to get sick and didn’t want me to take care of them. Ah, it
hurt, but in the other sense, I think it was much better.
LS64 Because it could have
been worse, for them and for you.
CL64 Correct.
LS65 What do you suppose is
the reason why you’ve had these attacks?
CL65 I really wish I could
answer that question. I don’t know. I don’t know at all.
LS66 Now I know you’re not a
doctor.
CL66 No.
LS67 [2-19] But I also know
that most people try to make sense of things that happen in their life, and
they think about the different kinds of explanations, and sometimes those
explanations help them to sort things out and to sort of put things to rest.
What kind of thoughts have you had about that?
CL67 What, like with my
parents or . . .
LS68 Well, specifically how
these attacks you’ve had back starting in 1992. . .
CL68 I just wish they would
leave me and just leave me alone. Sometimes I look at some friends and they are
all healthy and all, and I say to myself, why can’t I be like them? You know, no illnesses or nothing, but they
could probably have some illnesses that they’ve never said to me.
LS69 Well, you said that you
wish they would leave. They being . . .
CL69 Meaning either the panic
attacks or the epilepsy. I just wish I never had anything.
LS70 Okay.
CL70 [2-20] I mean I don’t
mind having occasional cold here and there, but I just wish I could get rid of
the attacks.
LS71 Before you said you’d
really be satisfied is you just had an explanation that would say this is just
panic or it’s both or it’s just epilepsy. And then you said your life would be
. .
CL71 I’d be fine. I’d be
happy.
LS72 Okay. So is that two
different things? Do you want, in one
instance you’re willing to settle for just an answer, and in the other one you
say you want it to go away.
CL72 Well, I would like to
just lead a normal life, have no illnesses, no nothing.
LS73 Okay. Do you know
anybody who leads that kind of life?
CL73 No. I mean I know a lot
of people they have illnesses and backaches and this, that and the other, but
nobody’s perfect.
LS74 Well, what about
yourself?
CL74 No. I’m not perfect.
LS75 Well, so then you would expect that you wouldn’t have perfect
health then.
CL75 [2-21] No. But I just
wish that I never came across having these, but somebody must have wanted me to
have them.
LS76 Somebody.
CL76 Somebody. I don’t know
who, but they chose me.
LS77 Sort of like a spell?
CL77 Well, not a spell, but
I’ve seen people that have gone into my neurologist’s office, and they are
worse off then me. I mean there was a little boy that was in a wheelchair, and
I mean I said to myself my god, that could be me. That could have been me. I
could have been in a wheelchair, couldn’t walk or talk or drive or anything or
walk or you know my head could be in a brace of something like that or, I’m
lucky. I’m lucky I can hold a job, walk, you know, go to concerts, you know,
lead a normal life. So.
LS78 [2-22] So maybe things
aren’t so bad after all.
CL78 No, they’re not. They’re
not.
LS79 What’s your hope about
the next six months? What are you
expecting?
CL79 Well, hopefully to get
out of our house. Moved into a new either home or apartment or whatever. And,
hopefully, we will start having a family. And just be happy as pie.
LS80 All right. How does the
idea of starting a family sound for you?
CL80 Sounds good. I’d like
to.
LS81 Any reservations about
it?
CL81 [2-23] No. I was an only
child and I didn’t like it. I’d like to have at least two children if possible
so at least they have somebody to hang onto, and I just don’t want it to be my
husband and myself when we get old. I’d like to have grandchildren and all.
Something to look forward to.
LS82 Okay. When you say
that, you changed. Your eyes shifted one direction and then the other. You
didn’t know that that happened?
CL82 No.
LS83 Yeah, it’s almost as if
your words said one thing and your body was saying something else.
CL83 No. I didn’t know that.
LS84 Yeah.
CL84 But I’m looking forward
to getting everything together.
LS85 Sometimes people can be
looking forward to something a lot but still have misgivings. Do you think
sometimes you may be that way?
CL85 [2-24] No. No I don’t
have any misgivings. I just want to have a nice life with my husband, raise a
nice family, and just get on with life. Be nice and happy. Have occasional, you
know, problems in the family. Everybody will have problems like that, and just
grow old together. That’s what I think.
LS86 What’s the likelihood
that that is going to happen?
CL86 I think it will happen.
LS87 All right, even with
all these uncertain medical concerns?
CL87 I think it will. I
really want to get down to it to figure out what the heck is wrong with me.
LS88 [2-25] There’s are
going to be three possible answers. The one is that it’s something very well
defined which may or may not be treatable. Another possibility is, the second
possibility, is that there really isn’t anything at all that medical tests can
pick up, at least at this stage of the development of the condition. And third
is that it might be something that’s, that can be diagnosable but which
attitudes and certain beliefs that you have may, may be making it, exacerbating
it, making it worse. If you could get that answer tonight and be absolutely
certain that that was the exact diagnosis and it wasn’t anything else, it was
going to be one of those three, which of those three would you find easiest to
live with? Which would you find most
difficult to live with?
CL88 [2-26] I would just want
to be happy. Just be very happy.
LS89 But you only have those
three choices.
CL89 Yeah. Um, I couldn’t
answer you right now. I don’t know.
LS90 You don’t.
CL90 No. Not right now.
LS91 What’s keeping you from
knowing right now? How are you keeping
yourself from knowing that?
CL91 I couldn’t answer that.
I really don’t know offhand.
LS92 Okay. Well, let’s say
you don’t know offhand. What inklings do you have?
CL92 Like of . . .
LS93 Well, which of those
three would be the most difficult for you to accept? Just based on what you know about yourself as a person and how
your life has gone.
CL93 [2-27] I really don’t
know offhand.
LS94 Okay. Let me ask you
something else.
CL94 Sure.
LS95 Could you demonstrate
what that tightness was like, without describing. Could you just show me in
your body what it was like?
CL95 Oh, sure. Um, what it
would be it would come up my leg, be real tight.
LS96 Without words.
CL96 Okay. Come up here, up
to my. . .
LS97 But you can’t use
words.
CL97 Real tight. Go across,
down, and down.
LS98 So if I was to come
into the room with your husband that day, and how would I see you?
CL98 [2-28] He would probably
be sitting up against the couch on the floor, and I would have a hold of both
of his hands because at that time I was afraid if somebody would let go of my
hands that I was going to fall or anything like that. I mean, I was on the
floor, but still I had to hold onto somebody’s hands or if they even just tried
to let go a little bit to get blood back in their fingers, I would feel like I
was falling.
LS99 Okay, and if you fell,
what’s the worst thing that would happen to you?
CL99 [2-29] Well, I’d fall,
I’d fall. Get back up. But I never did, I fell quite a few times. I mean I fell
in the shower two times, but I feel them coming on, and what I do it get on the
floor, and then when I usually go into them, like this one time I fell, and
then the next thing I went to go like this and I rug burned my whole nose. So.
LS100 What’s the worst thing
that could happen to you?
CL100 Well, I couldn’t die from
these.
LS101 You’re sure of that?
CL101 Yeah. My husband always
tells me, but I think it’s in anger, that he says he would leave me. Because he
is just tired of these. But I think he just says it because he’s mad, because
these keep coming on, and on, and on. But I just get these I think when I’m all
stressed out, when I have two or three different things on my mind at the one
time. And I just get so stressed that I just go into having the attacks.
LS102 And you said he was very
angry with you?
CL102 Yeah, he gets made, but
then what he does is he goes out to cool off, you know, take a ride or
whatever, and it doesn’t bother me.
LS103 It doesn’t bother you
that he is angry at you?
CL103 [2-30] Well, I understand
now because we have been through it so many, so long, so many years, that he
just goes off and just drives around, and then he will come back, because he
says I can’t stay around here with you because I know how you’ll be and
everything so. He comes back and then he’s okay. He understands.
LS104 Okay. What does he
understand?
CL104 Well, I mean he
understands that I’m going through these, and he wants me to get better. He
does. Because he wants both of us to have children and carry on a normal good
life.
LS105 Okay. Have you had any
couples counseling?
CL105 No.
No. Not at all.
LS106 Okay. So right now
you’re getting some counseling yourself.
CL106 [2-31] And he’s getting
counseling himself because he has not gotten over his grief from his parents.
So he likes going to that too.
LS107 Is it possible there may
be some issues with . . .
CL107 The marriage or
something?
LS108 The marriage
relationship?
CL108 I mean if we ever had to
go to marriage counselor we’d go, but you know, I mean I don’t think we would
say no to it. We’d go and just see if it was that or if it was both of our, I
mean my panic attacks and his grief just to see. I’d do that. I’d be game.
LS109 What is the earliest
experience you can remember as a child?
CL109 Doing anything?
LS110 Something that maybe
happened once. Just a single time.
CL110 That I got in trouble or
just anything?
LS111 No, the earliest thing
you can remember.
CL111 [2-32] Earliest thing.
Hmm. I remember getting in trouble with my dad. My neighbor and I went across
the street and both the fathers, we were playing like in a new home they were
building, and they found our little tricycles at the corner but no us. And both
the father went over and oh boy we got a whipping coming home.
LS112 How old were you?
CL112 Oh, about three.
LS113 Okay, and so this was
another little girl?
CL113 Me and my next door
neighbor.
LS114 A little girl?
CL114 Yes.
LS115 She was about the same
age?
CL115 She was a year younger. I
was about four and she was about three, so.
LS116 And whose idea was it?
CL116 Oh, well, we got up to
the corner, and our other neighbors were across playing in there, and we just
kind of looked at each other and said let’s go for it.
LS117 Okay. All right. Which
part of that whole experience do you remember most vividly?
CL117 The spanking.
LS118 [2-33] Okay. So how,
tell me about how that came about?
CL118 It hurt.
LS119 Well, were you standing
up?
CL119 Oh, yes standing up.
Because my dad, both the dads had to carry the bikes back, and us, and hitting
us, and you telling us not to go over there anymore, so.
LS120 Okay. You remember that
pretty vividly?
CL120 Not really that one.
There was another time when I went into a swimming pool at a neighbor’s house
two doors down. I kept asking my mom, “I’m going swimming.” “No you’re not. No
you’re not.” I said, “I’m going swimming.” So I went into the pool, and we were
up to our chins with the water, and my dad found out that I was in the pool and
so did the other neighbor, it was the same girl, oh boy. We got hit coming out
of the pool.
LS121 Okay. And what part of
that do you remember most?
CL121 Um, that the water was up
to my chin and I could barely breathe.
LS122 [2-34] All right, and
what was your feeling just as the water was up to here?
CL122 Nothing. My neighbor was
saying are you supposed to be in that pool, and I said no.
LS123 Okay. So the water is up
here, and you remember that? What do
you remember about that?
CL123 Well, just being in the
pool and having fun.
LS124 And how were you
feeling?
CL124 Fine. I was feeling fine.
LS125 Was it an
adventure? Was it scary?
CL125 No, it wasn’t scary. No
it was fun. I like to swim.
LS126 All right. But you said
you were concerned whether you were going to be able to breathe like that.
CL126 Well, a little bit.
Because I was on my tippy toes and all the way up to here so because it was a
four foot pool and I was under that height.
LS127 Sure. And how old were
you at the time?
CL127 Um, four.
LS128 Okay. Well you did some
pretty daring things as a child? Sounds
like you were kind of independent too.
CL128 Ah, yes and no. But I . .
.
LS129 [2-35] Well how about
the no part. In what way weren’t you?
CL129 Well, the no thing. This
was really stupid how I look back at it. My parents, they used to go to my
neighbors houses like they would trade off and just go over for a night like on
a Saturday, and I could not go to sleep until my mother was in the house. Now I
could see if they went out out to like far away and then waiting for them to
come back, but they were either one, two, or four houses down. I could not fall
asleep until she got in the house. And I could never understand it to this day.
LS130 Okay, and what’s your
understanding?
CL130 [2-36] Well, now I look
thinking that it was just I had to have her in the house like the, that guy, I
can’t even think of the word, that you just had to be in there. The
protectiveness. That she had to be in the house before I went to sleep. And she
wouldn’t fall asleep until I went when I used to go out, and then she wouldn’t
fall asleep until I got home.
LS131 And somehow she
understood that and accepted that and your life went on and her life went on.
CL131 Yes.
LS132 If, put your husband in
your mother’s place. Would he have understood that? Would he have?
CL132 Yes he would. He’d
understand.
LS133 And he wouldn’t have
gotten mad at you?
CL133 No. See I was always
afraid when I was growing up that when I would get married I’d be afraid say my
husband would go out for the night, that I would not be able to fall asleep
until he got home. It’s the other way around. I could fall asleep, and then he
would come in. But we have made a pact. I said look, if you spend the night at
a friend’s house, call. Let me know. Because if he doesn’t he hears from me.
I’ll let him know.
LS134 How do you let him know?
CL134 [2-37] Oh, I give him a
few nice words. I’ll have an argument with him, and he says okay, yeah, I know.
I’m dumb. I know I did a dumb thing. But we’ve got a good understanding. A good
friendship relationship marriage.
LS135 Who are you most like,
your mother or your father?
CL135 I have a bit of my dad, I
have a lot of my dad. I don’t have patience, and I do have my mom. So more like
my dad, but I have my mom too.
LS136 Okay, and there is just
one of you, did one of them sort of spoil you a little bit more than the other?
CL136 [2-38] My dad. Oh god my
dad. I always went a lot of places with him. Like just to the store. You know,
he’d say hey, let’s go to the store. Okay, get in the car and go with him. But
I was close to my mom in a different way. But when my dad did die it just, it
hit. I don’t know if it was the first person very close to me that died or
what. To this day I don’t know that answer, but I think that’s what it is.
LS137 Yeah, makes sense. How
you’ve described things is not much different at all from other people that
have been very concerned about the kind of symptoms you describe, and often
times they tell similar kinds of early life experiences as you’ve described,
and almost always there is a sense where they are doing one of two things. You
are either holding on really tight to themselves or feeling like their breath
is holding them in very, very tight, and you want to know what tends to happen
with those individuals? After a period
of time, something very interesting happens. And they wouldn’t have predicted
it. Other people they know never would have guessed that it would have
happened, but it happens. You know what it is?
CL137 No.
LS138 All of a sudden, out of
the clear blue, that sense of tightness starts easing up. It tightens up a
little bit, eases up a little bit, and then its gone.
CL138 That’s very good.
LS139 [2-40] And that means
then that your breathing kind of starts back that normal rhythm again because
breath is something that we don’t have to even think about. There is an
automaticity to it. It’s, it just happens. It’s like your heart, and when the
breathing comes back, it’s as if what were concerns and what were problems to
them, they may still be there, but they don’t seem to be quite the same. There
is a little different coloring to them. The texture of those concerns is a
little bit different, and many of the things in their lives that were going
well before continue to go well. [2-41] And some of the other things in their
life that weren’t going quite so well really start being less of a problem. Now
that doesn’t mean they are perfect anymore and not that everything has gone
away, but there is not quite that sense of impending concern. And do you know
why I’m thinking that’s going to happen?
CL139 No.
LS140 The story you told about
the bicycles and the new house and about the swimming pool both those
situations in the short run didn’t seem like they were absolutely happy
endings. But your life went on after that.
CL140 Yeah, it did.
LS141 [2-42] And it was that
little point in time, seconds, maybe a couple of minutes, and you got past the
spanking. It came from the person who was probably the closest in your life.
CL141 And they were just trying
to teach us.
LS142 Yeah.
CL142 Not to do wrong.
LS143 Yeah. Yeah. Well, and
they may have been trying to teach you something else too. Probably even more
so, and that is how to stay alive, to stay healthy. I think that’s what the
lesson was in both those stories.
CL143 I think so too.
LS144 [2-43] And that’s a
legacy that your parents gave to you. You always have those memories. Things
weren’t going well for a while. They were very exciting up until that time when
you were running around the house and in the pool, and then this little bit of
reality comes in, but nothing really bad happens. You don’t die, you don’t lose
privileges and get grounded for ten years, but out of that experience something
good came. Your relationship was restored with your father. I’m sure he loved
you as much as you did.
CL144 Oh god yeah. Yes he did.
LS145 And I’m wondering if
that pattern, little pattern may repeat it self just ever so occasionally in
your life in little mini fashion, little miniature fashion.
CL145 [2-44] It might. I think
it does. Because I miss my dad a lot, and like I said, with certain things, I
do miss him. I wish they were here like when we have children. I would miss . .
.
LS146 And here’s what I am
going to suggest to Kathleen. That one of the ways that you have been able to
keep that fond memory of your father alive happens in your relationship with
your husband.
CL146 Right.
LS147 Okay, so you two mix it
up a little bit, but what is it that ends up coming out of that? He shows you you are still together. You’ve
got a life plan. It’s maybe a little . . .
CL147 Rocky here and there.
LS148 Yeah. And the future may
not be absolutely clear. You’d like to have this the children and grow old
together and have grandchildren, but you never know exactly how every step will
be.
CL148 We are just going to have
to go day by day.
LS149 [2-45] Yeah, right. And
you have a unique way of remembering your father, and I think the important
part of this whole thing is the experience you have of feeling energized and so
alive I think is happening in both instances. When you were a little girl and
even with the tightening up, there is a sense of aliveness that’s there because
it’s not like the rest of your everyday life experiences. And you’re in a very
interesting situation, and the thing that’s interesting about it is what would
happen if you changed that little pattern that you have with your husband? Will you forget about your father? Will he still have that place in your life
and in your heart?
CL149 Well, he’ll always . . .
LS150 [2-46] I think he will.
CL150 He will. Right.
LS151 [2-47] And you know, it
may be that at some point in time, just like I said, that just sort of goes
away, that kind of inner sense that something isn’t right. I think that same sense
can go away too, and that you won’t need to quite remember your father through
these experience of these bodily tightenings and symptoms. And you will still
be able to love him, cherish him, remember him, and it will mean your life is
going to go on, and your husband’s, your life with him is going to go on. So
that’s what I think might happen. But you know what? The other thing is it might take a different tact. But you’re
going to be the one that will know that.
CL151 Yeah.
LS152 Okay.
CL152 That’s right.
LS153 We need to stop.
CL153 Okay.
LS154 I’m glad we had a chance to talk.
CL154 Thank you very much.
FOR
FURTHER INFORMATION
Dinkmeyer, D. C., Dinkmeyer, D. C. Jr., & Sperry, L. (1987). Adlerian
counseling and psychotherapy, (2nd Ed.) Columbus: Merrill.
Sperry, L. (1995). Handbook of diagnosis and treatment of the DSM-IV
personality disorders. NY: Brunner/Mazel.
Sperry L. & Carlson, C., Eds. (1996). Psychopathology and
psychotherapy: From DSM-IV diagnosis to treatment (2nd Ed.).
Washington, D.C.: Accelerated Development.
Sperry, L., Brill, P.L., Howard, K.I., & Grissom, G. R. (1995). Treatment
outcomes in psychotherapy and psychiatric interventions. NY: Brunner/Mazel
Copyright
© 2001, Zeig, Tucker & Theisen, Inc., All Rights Reserved.